"Anti-Bullying" Speaker Dan Savage, who rudely bullied Christians during an anti-bullying talk by mocking the Bible, now has his sights set on Islam.
Islam's Holy Book the Koran (or Qur'an) contains even stronger passages condemning homosexual than the Bible does. (see the bottom of this post for those passages from the Koran).
Just kidding.
Neither the "anti-bullying" bully, nor any person from the militant wing of the "homosexuality is genetic" camp would EVER dream to utter a single word of condemnation towards Islam or their Holy Book.
News reports for years have noted the stonings of those caught in homosexual acts, some of the stonings even being done in public arenas for entire towns to witness.
I would ask Mr. Savage:
"In which Christian nation are people being stoned to death for homosexual acts? And yet you huff and puff about the injustice of the Bible and mock it relentlessly. If you really were as tough as you talk, I'd think you'd first take on Islam, but perhaps you fear the retaliation? Your double standard with regard to Islam on the one hand and Christianity on the other shows that you actually could care less about fighting for the rights of those who desire to commit homosexual acts, and are instead simply seeking to make a name for yourself. Hezbollah and Al Qaeda are waiting vigilantly to hear you utter your first word condemning the Qu'ran, and if you ever do, you and I both know it won't be pretty."
The Qu'ran on homosexual acts:
"We also sent Lut: He said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!"" (Qur'an 7:80-82)
"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)! They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings:" "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind. But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 26:165-175)
"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! But his people gave no other answer but this: They said, "Drive out the followers of Lut from your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We destined to be of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!" (Qur'an 27:55-58)
"And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? - and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." (Qur'an 29:28-29)
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 4:15-16)
Dan Savage on Islam
ReplyDeletehttp://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/islamophobia
But he doesn't talk about the Qur'an does he
DeleteHe thoroughly condemned Islam's view on homosexuality, which is exactly what you claimed not he "nor any person from the militant wing of the 'homosexuality is genetic' camp would EVER" do. Whether he specifically mentions the Qur'an is neither here nor there.
DeleteSo you lied. Either you negligently or deliberately failed to take the simple step of googling "Dan Savage" and "Islam" in order to check your claims. Your blog bares false witness against Dan, and it's all to falsely make yourself or your religion out to be a victim.
"Whether or not he mentions the Qur'an is neither here nor there"...really????
DeleteI'd say it matters a GREAT deal because if he mentioned the Qur'an and/or the prophet, he would, in all likelihood, not be alive today.
Perhaps he speaks against the Bible instead of the Quran because he lives in a predominately Christian country?
ReplyDeletebullying is bullying, and the Qur'an is way worse than the Bible in terms of promoting violence against homosexuals, but we don't hear much about that do we.
DeleteFather,
Delete"way worse" ... implies the bible is bad in some way on this subject.
I didnt know that the bible promoted violence against homosexuals. (honest I dont know my the Bible well enough)
I think I know what you were trying to say , but its not reading well to me.
could you clear this up for the record?
Thanks ,
Blessings S.R
P.S I'm a catholic, I love your blog (and you) I pray for you often. This is a real and honest question , I'm not a hack. LOL
I don't see "way worse" in my post.
Deletehehe, my bad. "PM" was the author of the comment. your name was above the PM I thought you wrote the comment. Dhoy! Thought that was crazy to say. Ok now makes sense. It wasnt you. Phewww. made me nervous there for a min, haha.
DeleteThat'll show me to where my eyes when reading!
Night Fr. Thanks, sorry for that mix up.
The awfulness of the Islamic approach to gay people doesn't mitigate the wrongness of the Christian approach to gay people. And arguing that it does reveals the weakness of the argument that Savage should say nothing about Christianity. And. . . you've still never replied to the substantive argument that Savage actually HAS written about Islam and it's awfulness toward gay people. If you've failed to read the above link, may I recommend it to you- it answers exactly your initial criticism of Savage. He did in fact "dream to utter a single word of condemnation towards Islam or their Holy Book," and you're failure to notice is hardly his fault!
DeleteOh, and if Hezbollah or AlQaeda wanted to get him. . . that post on his blog has been around since 2008. Your threat that their reaction won't be "pretty" has also proved to be false. Maybe you've been busy, but none of my comments have been approved. Of course, it's your blog, but when someone proves me wrong on something, I'm humble enough to admit it out loud. If your argument is strong enough, why not allow dissenting voices?
DeleteOkay, correct, Savage took on Islam in general, and I said he wouldn't take on Islam or its Holy Book. The emphasis in my mind was on the Holy Book part because that is when people start blowing stuff up. Savage attacked the Bible directly, but I haven't heard him say anything about the Qur'an.
DeleteIf I deleted a comment by you it must have been left anonymously and problematic. Look back at my other posts throughout the two years of this blog and see if I fear dissenting voices.
My entire argument is NOT "look at how hard Islam is on homosexuality" I am, in this post, merely pointing out the fact that Savage, like the bullies he decries,is picking on a Faith that he knows has the humility to take his bullying and transcend it.
DeleteFather ,
ReplyDeleteCan you address his claim about the bible.(when he spoke to the teens)
Are they true?
What does the bible really say about homosexuals and slaves?
I address this stuff in my video above - many laws in the Bible are culturally driven - shellfish etc. Those quite clearly don't apply. Who decides which ones don't apply anymore...tah dah...the Church. The Bible was never meant to stand on its own, it is meant to stand along with the tradition of the Church.
DeleteAs for slavery it is really easy to be an arm chair historian. It takes someone besides a junior varsity historian like Savage to truly understand the history of slavery, and it can't be explained in a tweet. Suffice it to say that those who have studied the issue with a balanced perspective will readily concede that far from keeping slavery going the Church was at the fore in helping to bring slavery to an end.
Savage is basically employing the fallacious "The Almighty Hates Shellfish" argument--it goes that because the Bible binds the faithful to condemn homosexual acts, that means if we don't also follow the dietary restrictions, then we are picking and choosing, and thus hypocritical or arbitrary. But this is biblical ignorance on a massive scale because it doesn't take into account that there are several kinds of laws found in the OT in general and in Leviticus specifically. For instance there are universal moral norms, there are societal regulations, ritual purity laws, and specific punishments due to infractions of the above. Many of the societal, ritual and punishment regulations are superceded by Our Lord in the New Testament. But the universal laws are unchangable. Shellfish, farming, menstration, regulations are in the former category; adultery and homosexual acts are in the latter category. So Savage is pulling a fast one by making them all the same.
ReplyDeleteAs he does with slavery. Not all slavery is the same. Forcing criminals or prisoners-of-war to work is a type of slavery. As is indentured servitude. None of these are inherently wrong. But the slavery we think about when we here it is chattel slavery, or "man-stealing" which is condemned in both the OT and NT. And what Savage isn't telling you is that every time the Church took up the question of chattel slavery, it condemned it. Yes, many professing Catholic nations still practiced it, but that no more proves Church approval than the fact that we haven't been able to overturn Roe v. Wade demonstrates that the Church approves of abortion.
It amusing that Christians have to defend the Bible by using the argument that some forms of slavery are actually okay. I think that shows the weakness of the position you are arguing!
DeleteAnd I think it shows your lack of historical knowledge - clearly a serious weakness in the position you are arguing.
DeleteSo can I take it you concede my first point that Savage's invoking of dietary restrictions against the Leviticus condemnation of homosexual acts is a dog that won't hunt?
DeleteNext, on to slavery. Do you really think it is inherently wrong for a man to contract for service if he, say, can't afford passage on a ship to the New World as many did in the colonial period? Is it really inherently wrong to make a imprisoned criminal do a reasonable amount of work as part of payment of debt to society? They could be wrong depending on the situation, and there is an over-arching duty to mercy, but what I have described is not inherently wrong.
Ask an objective historian which institution did the most to bring about the end of slavery. In fact, you don't have to, because I'll promise you their answer will be the Catholic Church
DeleteRather than make the argument about the Bible vs. the Quran, we should be looking at how the religions treat people who partake in homosexual behavior.
ReplyDeleteThough I'm no scholar on European History or Chuch History, I can find no evidence that homosexuals were ever burned at the stake as so many gay rights activists claim. And certainly, no Western nation has improsoned anyone for their homosexual behavior in the past 50 years.
Muslim countries not only outlaw homosexual behavior but the penalty is often death. In Iran, public hangings are the punishment. I the West Bank, those accused are homosexual behavior are also murdered by the local authorities. In Saudi Arabia, flogging and lashing are often the punishment while capital punishment is still on the books.
Activist like Dan Savage should be called on their hyperbole and out right lies. If he is going to condemn all Christians due to the outrageous actions of a few, then why can't he and the rest of the Left be held to the same. As I recall Che Guevera and Castro (darlings of the Left) persecuted and murdered thousands for their homosexual behavior.
I am a gay man and happy to be so. Although the Christian tradition is deeply unfriendly to same sex eros, I disgree with it but I understand why. People like Savage, in fact, make me understand homophobia. He is part of the endless battalions of Sacred Righteous Victims whose protected status gives them the right to act out in public with license and impunity (and to enact into law) the very things that would outrage them were it done by their Oppressor Enemies. Cartoon thinkers and hypocrites. Inside every victim is a tyrant, waiting his (or her) moment.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are quite right about gay cowardice when it comes to Islam...indeed, the cowardice of the liberal West itself in face of one of its most ancient and implacable enemies. It is the Lord Voldemort of contemporary life, The Religion Which Must Not Be Named.
And the Quran is only part of Islam (somewhat like the Bible in Catholicism: primary but not complete). Just as important are the Sunna and the Hadith and Sharia, all of which make clear that any gay person would be immeasurably worse of in a Muslim society than in a post Christian one like ours.
Fr. I had two responses to the argument about sexuality in the animal kingdom in your earlier entry. Did they get lost in the moderation void?
ReplyDeleteNot sure Scott, sorry about that. I have hardly deleted any, I guess I'm pretty liberal in that sense :) but I'm not saying I didn't delete yours on accident. Sorry if I did! I'm sure it was good stuff!
DeleteI doubt this gets Published, But Father? You are so Harsh on the Homosexual's.
ReplyDeleteIs it because of the Churches teachings? or something more? Growing up Catholic? I rarely , if ever heard mention of the Homosexuals like I do now. especially from You. Perhaps because You might be harboring feelings inside of yourself? Most people who are so outspoken are usually those who HAVE those feelings themselves, and lash out to cover them up, in the hopes nobody will find out. or Perhaps You are so tortured inside, you are letting out some of your pain?
How many Famous TV Religious have been on the Gay bandwagon, only to be found out in the news that they are caught with someone, and exposed.
You seem to fit that profile, or so it might seem.
So Outspoken, to the High School Children, and the news media, and your Blog, I mean if any were gay? You could not change it, You just made them feel bad, and uncomfortable, singled out, and maybe even Bullied in a way. Perhaps because YOU feel that way inside?
You sort of fit the Profile,
an UN married man, living with other UN married men . (Vow Of Chastity? um so many Priests have broken that with Young Men already). That Bishop Out East looking at Jail time for covering it up??
You chose to Shave your head? a Pretty vein thing to do,
The Habit? well, perhaps Its a church thing? But it looks sort of like a man in a dress. to those not of the catholic religion,
I can only hope I am wrong.
I do know how hard it is to be born gay, (Its not a choice) and then have to live a lie like the church would have them do,
How tortured it would be to live so.
Jesus never spoke out against the Gay man or woman,
he went after the Straight ones who were breaking his laws.
He said to love one another as HE has loved you.
Your classes and your comments don't sound like you are so much as Loving of your neighbor. aren't YOU supposed to be His representative on Earth?
God made the Gay man and woman, there are millions and millions of them out there. its NOT a choice as you might have others believe,
Sounds more to me like the Sounds coming from a man in Pain himself.
Like JESUS Said? (Not the Church) Love thy neighbor as thy self for the Love of ME.
or You can continue to hurt innocent people with your comments and "Teachings"
Gay People an Abomination? Why would God have created Millions of them over the centuries, its not a fad, or a Lifestyle quirk.
Its People with feelings, People who would never choose to be that way? but are stuck living it.trying to live as normal a life as they can, (Ya know? a lot of them do not dress up, or wave flags or make out like the few on the news or in the parades, they live quiet normal lives, and work, and pay taxes, and do pretty much as the straight people do)
You can't change it, nor can you hide it. there are too many out there, and perhaps? You are one yourself.
I guess on the last day? God may reveal why he did it.
Until then? can't we all just get along?
LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THY SELF FOR THE LOVE OF ME!
1) "Gay people" are not an abomination, perhaps you didn't actually watch the whole class. Homosexual sex is an abomination.
Delete2) I appreciate your concern for me, but my outspokenness comes from one source - Catholics will be burning or at least jailed in the next ten years over this issue if the Church doesn't do a better job of educating people on what the Church teaches. It is already a hate crime in first world countries to post a class like the class I have posted here.
I am outspoken because I don't want to see my Church burned down and myself hauled to jail by a population that has been educated by people like Savage.
As for "loving my neighbor" you take your place in an ever expanding line of people who think that "love" = "letting people do whatever they want" and you are totally confused about Christ's words.
Christ told the Pharisees that they were bad people - so by your logic Christ wasn't loving in those instances?
I rarely , if ever heard mention of the Homosexuals like I do now
ReplyDeleteThat's because the secular onslaught to normalize it is rolling over people like a juggernaut. The Church's response is entirely proportional to the unprecedented effort to browbeat people into accepting it. As I've said before, if there ever is a Theives' Pride Parade you can bet there will be more Church emphasis on the wrongness of stealing.
As far as your sleaze tactic of suggesting the good Father is secretly a self-loathing homosexual, there is a curious sleight of hand waiting in the wings: for years we've had to endure progressives telling us that the Church was full of closeted homosexuals. There laughable theory was that anyone outspoken about the wrongness of homosexual acts was really gay and someday they will all be outed and then everyone can admit it and we can drop the teaching. But look what happened when the sex-abuse crisis hit: Those legions of secretly gay priests suddenly disappeared and not a one was to be found that could be associated with the abuse. Apparently you didn't get the memo that everyone is supposed to pretend homosexuality has nothing to do with it. Well, I'm sorry but they can't have it both ways. So my recommendation is to stick with facts and dump all this ascribing ulterior motives to people. It doesn't intimidate anyone and given that you don't have anything but the fallacious "They have no choice" argument (get back to me if there is ever a case of a homosexual whose hands involuntarily unzip his pants) makes your position look as hollow as it is.
Dan Savage has attacked Islam before:
ReplyDeletehttp://slog.thestranger.com/2008/01/islamophobia
Please get your facts straight before you attack someone. Im not defending his comments on the bible but the claim that it is "only christians" and not religion in general that he abhors is simply not true
Dan savage is a coward. All homosexual activists are cowards. They trash churches, throw uased condoms at Catholic priests, demand access to our childrens classrooms (to brainwash them with 'equality' garbage), drag their critics into "human rights" kangaroo courts (Canada), Imprison pastors (Norway)and parade through our streets annually in unspeakable displays of public nudity and sadomasochism. And they call themselves 'normal?'
ReplyDeleteIn the UK, over 90% of gays bars and clubs have closed down in London due to the growing Muslim population there. Sharia patrols are now a regular sight on many streets in several British cities, where Muslim and non-Muslim residents are now required to adhere to Sharia Laws. Today in the UK we have sharia banking, sharia laws, sharia courts, and even Halal school meals that are served to non-Muslim children. In the city of Bristol, angry Muslim parents were successful in getting books devoted to same-sex parenting removed from two public schools. A Muslim child in Wales was beaten to death by his mother because of his poor academic progress at school, and because he failed to remember and recite sufficient number of passages from the Koran. Police chiefs in Scotland were forced to apologise to "offended" Muslim business owners after they released a poster showing a German Shepherd puppy called Rebel sitting inside a policeman's hat as part of a public relations poster campaign. The Muslims complained because dogs are "unclean" to them.
In 2010, the East London Pride march was cancelled in order to avoid inflaming tensions with the local Muslim community. Britiains' most notorious homosexual activist, Peter Tatchell, laughingly invited local Muslim leaders to march with him in a united front "against homophobia and Islamophobia." Needless to say, the local Muslim leaders did not even dignify Tatchell's invitation with a response. But he still "respected" their decision!
The very fact that Muslim protestors are allowed to gather at British regimental homecoming parades from Iraq or Afghanistan, and shout at them, calling them "murderers' and "rapists" only reveals just how far Britain has declined. Needless to say, the lack of action taken against these barbarians by the British authorities, emboldened at least two of them to murder a British soldier in a London street recently. The first police officers who responded were unarmed and could not stop the slaughter (one of the Jihadists had a handgun). Finally, fourteen minutes after the first emergency call was placed to report the murder, an armed response unit showed up and shot both barbarians. Needless to say, it was far too late for Private Lee Rigby, who had already bled to death from his horrific injuries.
Britain has all but surrendered to its growing Muslim population. There are now parts of the country that resemble Islamabad or Cairo, where indigenous white Britons are very much in the minority, and where gay & lesbian residents have fled in fear of their safety.
Notice, I have not mentioned Christians in any of the above information. However, the fact that 400 angry Imams in the UK recently gathered to denouce Parliaments decision to legalize same sex marriage is a warning that cannot be ignored. Indeed, the fact that the newly minted Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the world-wide Anglican Church, Justin Welby, has welcomed Parliaments decision, only reveals the increasing irrelevance of watered-down Christianity in the UK, and the rise of Islam in its place wielding its sword in ideological defiance with no one willing to stop them.