But when it comes to their Catholic Faith they typically resist "the bureaucracy" of the Church and all forms of authority and believe that no one should ever tell them how they should live out their moral life?
At least a Catholic Republican can say "I'm for a strong Church, but I want the government out of my life"
But the Catholic Democratic thought of "I'm for a strong, authoritative government but I want the Church out of my life" doesn't make any sense to me.
UPDATED: As I've thought about this more, perhaps it is that Democrats feel like man as a political being needs a lot of oversight while religious man does not?? Thoughts?
Perhaps Catholic democrats don't agree with your small government versus big government dichotomy.
ReplyDeleteWell then they need to look at the budgets that Democrats put forward. Are you suggesting that Democrats AREN'T for bigger government?
DeleteYou are forgetting Fr, the government IS the people of the United States. Are you suggesting that Government involvement is a bad thing? Democrats think that government involvement is invaluable in certain circumstances. Such as building bridges, going to space, healthcare, ect. The reason that healthcare costs are so high is because government is limited on how much they can negotiate with healthcare and pharmaceutical companies. We spend more on healthcare than any other country and only cover 25% of the population! That's ludicrous, and can be fixed, but there is this knee jerk reaction that ALL big government is bad. That's not true, often times its the big corporations that cause major problems for this country. In any case, why are you pitting Catholics against each other? What good are you doing in this discussion to further people's faith? Honestly, I'm only seeing harm.
DeleteI'm sorry you only see harm. I do not. I think the interplay of faith and politics is a very relevant question to be thinking about and discussing openly.
DeleteThe Church says the federal government involvement should be involved only where it is necessary, not in all areas where the federal government THINKS it can make things better.
But nobody actually KNOWS what is necessary. They only know what they THINK is necessary. I happen to THINK that IN SOME AREAS, more government is necessary. Also, there is a difference between a larger size government and one that regulates more. There are some areas where I think the answer to a problem just requires regulation and there are other areas where think funding and more involvement is needed. I find democrats will have many opinions like this, whereas I think republicans seem to have one viewpoin, less govt.
DeleteThe discussion of politics and religion is important, but humiliation and sin shaming does nothing to further constructive dialog. It would be wise to watch the tone.
DeleteI would remind the church that the government is the people, and if people think they can make things better in society they have a right to try to do so.
where did I sin-shame?
Delete"only more regulating" - who does the more regulating? people, which costs more money and means a bigger government
Deletethe government doesn't have the right to try anything that it thinks can make things better. If the party in power at the moment thinks it could make things better by imposing a fairness doctrine, their having that thought doesn't give them the right to do it.
DeleteThe hallmark of American democracy, in my opinion, is not "majority rules" but that the "minority is protected from the majority doing whatever it wants"
People have the right to write their senators and congressmen, speak to their local school boards, vote, ect. That is the governmental process, not "big" government. And your right, majority does not have the right to infringe on minority rights, and that's where courts and other checks and balances come into play.
DeleteThere are people in this country who control so much wealth that they can cause a recession with the stroke of a pen. There are people in this country who control so much wealth that they have become above the law since jailing them would hurt the economy. We need to make sure we protect the majority from the minority as well. Third world countries exist because all the wealth in concentrated on the few who wield do much wealth and power that nothing is able to change without there consent. If the govt plays no roll in regulating the market, than this is what will happen
DeleteI would also like to point out the words of Pope Leo XIII:
DeleteAs regards the State, the interests of all, whether high or low, are equal. The members of the working classes are citizens by nature and by the same right as the rich; they are real parts, living the life which makes up, through the family, the body of the commonwealth; and it need hardly be said that they are in every city very largely in the majority. It would be irrational to neglect one portion of the citizens and favor another, and therefore the public administration must duly and solicitously provide for the welfare and the comfort of the working classes; otherwise, that law of justice will be violated which ordains that each man shall have his due. To cite the wise words of St. Thomas Aquinas: “As the part and the whole are in a certain sense identical, so that which belongs to the whole in a sense belongs to the part.” Among the many and grave duties of rulers who would do their best for the people, the first and chief is to act with strict justice – with that justice which is called distributive – toward each and every class alike.
Why is it that Catholics who vote Republican typically are for small government, limited regulations, and limited authority so no one can come in at tell people how to live and govern their lives…
ReplyDeleteBut when it come to their Catholic Faith they typically demand that everyone, despite their individual faith, must adhere to the bureaucracy of the Catholic Church and their vision of authority and definition of what constitutes a moral life.
At least a democratic Catholic can say they are for a representative government that follows the law and respects all individuals, and that individual faith systems do not trump core American values of individual freedom, equality, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
“But the Catholic Democratic thought of "I'm for a strong, authoritative government but I want the Church out of my life" doesn't make any sense to me.” Wow, that is so NOT surprising considering the glaring double standard the Church portrays. Yeah, keep telling yourself that Catholics are leaving because of crappy music, not your hypocrisy.
Dear Anonymous,
DeleteYou are sadly not even a dime a dozen, you are a dozen for half a penny. It is uneducated, uncatechised, secular-modernists from a culturally "Catholic" background like you that have (with the help of weak men like Tim Dolan, Sean O'Malley and Don Wuerl) systematically wripped apart the Church in the world for the last 50 years. You should go back to CCD and perhaps RCIA and read about something called Natural Law Theory. When you've accomplished that tremendous feat, go to a real Catholic school and major in Hellenistic philosphy. Until you do that, silence should be your cardinal virtue.
There is only ONE definition of what "constitutes a moral life" honey. That is the life of Jesus Christ and His Body the Catholic Church and the truth that has extended down over 3000 years of Salvation History. You talk about respecting people yet have no conception WHATSOEVER of sin like oh I don't know ABORTION (AKA THE SLAUGHTER OF HUMAN BEINGS) and HOMOSEXUALITY WHICH CRIES OUT TO GOD FOR VENGEANCE yet you masquerade as though you are educated with your half-witted jargon and rhetoric. You're a dozen per half penny sweetheart "and Jesus wept". Go look that up and tell me what the Patrialogia Graeca says miss philology scholar.
An American Catholic who votes for the current democratic party is a disgrace to Jesus Christ and to decent human beings everywhere. Such a person would have been better to drown herself at the bottom of the ocean with a huge millstone thrown around her neck (heard that before smartypants?)
I have a solution to your apparent dilemma. If you don't like the truth WHICH DOESN'T CHANGE (Go read Book III of the Republic, cave-dweller) and you prefer to be an enemy of God and His Son, then no one is forcing you to stay. Don't let the Son of God hit you where He split you. GET OUT OF THE CHURCH UNTIL YOU REPENT AND BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL. Don't worry hun there are plenty more just like you spreading your sinful double-speak. Do us real Catholics a favour as Pope Francis said " BUONASERA", GOODNIGHT E CIAO pazza e matta ragazza che non capisce niente della chiesa ni anche la Verita...
Lastly: Hell is real and there are real flames there. Unless you want to burn, ask God's forgiveness and repent. Become a saint not a follower of the prince of this world.
P.S. Read Genesis 3:6 lately? You remind me of the snake...
P.P.S. Look up the term latae sententiae in the 83 Code and Canon 915 I think your picture is right next to both!
You are a presumptuous fool, Discipulus. Read Romans 2 and you'll see how much God hates sanctimonious hypocrites. Thanks for proving my point.
DeleteI'm a presumptuous fool that God hates, yet you stand by the party of KILLING UNBORN CHILDREN and HOMOSEXUALITY, and God loves you, is that it?
DeleteWhy don't you read Acts 8 because your new nickname is Simon Magus, the sorcerer. With your words you seduce the faithful into sin with your foolish double-speak. Are you aware that democRATS give nearly nothing to charity on a personal level? Are you aware that your buddy Joe "Shotgun" Biden gave less than a couple thousand dollars to charity? Are you aware that the wealthiest 10 senators in the US are all democRATS who pay the fewest taxes and give the most money to support planned parenthood and the "gay rights" movement which in the eyes of God is SIN? Could you explain to me the theological definition of sin? You must have studied under Ratzinger in Regensburg back in 69 when he was still writing Introduction to Christianity. I'll have to ask my professor who is one of 5 doctoral students of Ratzinger if he remembers you TA'ing while Ratzinger was taking a bathroom break.
You are such a fool that you don't even have a point to stand on. You have a twig called social justice which you and the rest of your pitiful ilk hobble on crying that the democrat party wants to help the poor, as though if you're not a democrat you want to kill, mame, and hurt the poor. You are a true fool in the truest sense of that word. You ultimately hurt the poor by keeping them on welfare poor in ghettos so that the democrat party stays perpetually in power.
You also responded to none of my points. What's the matter, snake got your tongue?
Do you support gay rights and sodomy as a Catholic democrat? Unless I've seen you at the local democrats for life meeting (oh I forgot THERE AREN'T ANY) you are a public sinner not worthy of Christ.
Do yourself a favour, don't waste your time trolling Fr. Hollowell's blog, go read the 83 Code and Canon 915, go find a decent priest and REPENT. If that's not your next move, then GET OUT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. We no longer need people like you in the pews. Go spend your time at your local democrat city committee meeting instead.
Nunc autem scripsi vobis non commisceri: si is qui frater nominatur, est fornicator, aut avarus, aut idolis serviens, aut maledicus, aut ebriosus, aut rapax, cum ejusmodi nec cibum sumere. Quid enim mihi de iis qui foris sunt, judicare? Nonne de iis qui intus sunt, vos judicatis? Nam eos qui foris sunt, Deus judicabit. AUFERTE MALUM EX VOBIS IPSIS.
Ciao pazza.
Sounds like you're overdue to return to your psychiatrist to have your monthly anti-psychotic injection. The 1st of the month was 8 days ago! Why are you waiting????
DeleteLet us pray: "Lord, we humbly ask you to help our brotha Discipulus get to his (or her) doctor for some much needed relief. We know that through your healing touch, you have cured millions of people suffering from mental illnesses. Lord, we ask you to put your healing hand on the head of Discipulus and suck out the illness that has been ravaging his mind since he was born. We ask this through Christ, our Lord, who reigns with God forever and ever Amen."
I implore everybody who reads this to help our friend Discipulus by praying the "Discipulus Prayer" as printed above. It would help him out a lot!
There's more to it than this small minded attack. Perhaps they're democratic because they believein expanding social programs to help support the poor and making medical care more available for the sick.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with that at all (except the small-minded part). In fact, I'm sure that IS the reason that most Catholic Democrats are for bigger government. What I AM saying is why do those same people, typically, want the Church to be small and out of the way while they want the government to be large?
DeleteWell, since you seem to be talking about the "role of government" than lets set aside the moral differences for a moment. I don't know that I'm specifically for big or small govt but I'm definitely for govt regulation. We're talking about economics here and I simply believe the govt plays an important role in regulating it's economy. To me, saying "I believe in big govt or small govt" is adhering to some sort of ideal. I don't believe in being ideal about anything but your relationship with God. Nobody really knows the best way to run a government and I believe that if you insist on small govt or big govt, you are falling into an unprovable ideology. I'd rather ask what seems to work and what is failing. If I don't adhere to an ideology, I can change if something doesn't work. I think most democrats feel this way. It's not that we believe in big government, we just don't necessarily believe in small govt.
DeleteGreat point!
ReplyDeleteSo, sounds like only Catholic Republicans are welcome at your parish?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I said wasn't it? No Catholic Democrats at my parish?
DeleteI know and am friends with a lot of people who are Catholic Democrats. I know of several people at my parishes who are active Democrats and who are also great people doing great work in the community.
If the opportunity presents itself when I'm talking with any of them, I'll raise this same question with them to see what their thoughts are on the issue.
In answer to your question above about why Catholic republicans seem to want small government so no one tells them what to do, but "demand" everyone adhere to the Catholic faith to live their lives. Well, I don't believe we demand others live by Catholic doctrine - but there is so much truth and logic and love that it just simply makes sense to do that. The Catholic Church really teaches a perfect plan to get everyone to heaven (though, filled with imperfect people, we aren't very good at adhering to that plan). Whereas government of any size does not care one iota where we end up eternally.
ReplyDeleteNow, if someone doesn't care where they end up eternally, none of that matters a hill of beans for them - but let me tell you something - if you are ever in need and you need an entity to assist you, I can assure you, the Catholic Church is a much better option (there are other great options out there too) than the government.
Also, I can assure you, the Catholic Church does not have double standards - it has one standard by which to live. But the Church is made of people who do not always follow those standards and that is why it seems as though there is more than one set of them. It's a shame really. The Church has changed my life dramatically and I cannot imagine life without Christ in the Eucharist, and His mercy.
I am amazed at the beauty of the Catholic Church.
Did you know that the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world? It started hospitals, schools, universities. There are orders of nuns who care for the elderly and dying, orders who take care of the sick and dying, orders that do missions around the world to bring Christ to others. Not just sending aid (as governments do at times), but actually on the ground, serving individuals.
I pray you encounter Jesus one day and that you come to know His love for you.
Trina,
Delete"Well, I don't believe we demand others live by Catholic doctrine - but there is so much truth and logic and love that it just simply makes sense to do that." Excellent contradiction, I can assure you that, as you have proven, the Catholic Church is fraught with double standards.
Do you really wish for the Catholic Church to run the government? Have you thought of the downstream effects that would happen? Do you really believe that Jesus would have a political affiliation? Remember, America is a secular government for YOUR PROTECTION. It's amazing that people suggest that to be a "real Christian" you must have a particular political "faith". I don't, I happen to believe that one can be a Christian and be a republican, democrat, independent, ect. Nor do I believe that one needs a particular faith base, or any faith at all, to be a good political leader. Also, before you get carried away with yourself the American government is the biggest charitable organization in the world, and it gives a ton of money to the Catholic Church. BTW-I'm Lutheran, so stop assuming those who disagree with Catholic doctrine are atheists. With all due respect, I think you are a bit full of yourself.
As I believe you said when you were TA'ing for Ratzinger back in 69 at Regensburg, you dear professor of all things should know the natural law is a law in and of itself. the natural law is the law of God, please give us your understanding of ST PP 93 on natural law, we're all dying to hear your understanding of Aquinas on that hun. I don't recall Aquinas saying that if you live in a secular non-Catholic moral relativist society/state you're not bound by the natural law anymore and can do the old mario cuomo "personally opposed but not imposing my own views" rant.
DeleteWELL LORD HAVE MERCY A LUTHERAN! At last the light cometh from Wittenberg. How's the welch's grape juice my dear? No wonder you have no understanding of natural law theory let alone Catholicism. I have to apologise I thought you were a liberal masquerading as a Catholic, you're just an uninformed protestant! How sad, but not as bad as the former.
Quit the grape juice hun, read John 6 and try the real thing sometime.
Actually the problem with Catholic Democrats is that they're almost all pro-abortion, pro-sodomy heretics who think they represent the faith and not, you know, the successors of the apostles.
ReplyDeleteand your source for this is?
DeleteUm...wow...I'm democrat and don't believe in either one
DeleteWell then we're all waiting for you to tell us all your real name and find out who you are! The only true Catholic democrat who doesn't support the entire anti-Christian platform of the democrat party! You my dear are a veritable goldmine! Please tell us all who you are as we wish to do homage!
DeleteThanks for the laugh.
Discipline,
DeleteI have not been aggressive on any of my posts whatsoever. I am just trying to have some dialogue and defend the democrat position. Your posts are riddled with hostility(note that I am not the "anonymous" that called you a presumptuous fool). I am a practicing Roman Catholic from the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. I choose to remain anonymous for the sake of certain family members out of respect and I don't really feel it's anyone's business. My remaining anonymous has nothing to do with the conversation unless you're just looking for the name of the person you would like to put on your hate list. I do not believe in abortion. I do not believe in gay marriage or acts. I do not believe that religion should be removed from everything public. As a Catholic, I practice the faith IN IT'S ENTIRETY. I do not use birth control, I go to church EVERY Sunday. I even pray the Liturgy of the Hours. There is no way I could possibly go into all detail about why I vote democrat but maybe I can at least touch on a few things. With regards to Abortion, I don't believe anyone in Washington is going to reverse Roe v Wade no matter what party is in charge. There are multiple reasons for this. One is simply the fact that, by keeping it legal to have abortions, Republicans can keep using it at every election as a reason to vote for them. I don't think any of them plan to actually change it. Also technically speaking, Roe V Wade is in line with the constitution because the constitution specifically gives rights to "born" individuals. Now I do believe in changing the constitution to include the unborn as well but there are problems with this as well which I don't have time to go into. I honestly believe that the best approach to end abortion is to change people's hearts and minds. As for homosexuals. I don't support homosexual activity but I'm not in charge of other peoples lives. If two people want to unify and call it marriage, I can't find any ground to stand on to say they can't. They are just trying to gain certain legal rights. I suppose it's possible that this could lead to Catholics being accused of discrimination, but you can't refuse this right just because it MIGHT lead to that.
I have found the actions of the republican party both federally and locally to be very harmful for society. There are so many things to discuss on this topic but there is too much to go into it all so I'm sorry that I don't. I'd rather respond to specific issues as they come up. I don't believe I have all the answers. I don't believe your wrong to vote republican and I don't feel negatively towards those who do. Living in Indiana, almost everyone I hang out with is republican.
As far as economics go, you might read the quote I posted from Pope Leo XIII.
It's really tiring and hurtful when Catholic Republicans try to tell me I'm a bad Catholic when I'm trying to be as good a Catholic as I can. We're supposed to be a community of believers but these attitudes are so divisive.
In reality, I don't believe either party fits the Catholic view.
Wow Father. You hit it out of the park!
ReplyDeleteWow. You really hit it out of the park!
ReplyDeleteYou say you post things like this to dialogue and better understand, but who begins dialogue with an insult? You basically say republic Catholics are good Catholics and democrat Catholics are bad Catholics. What a terrible generalization. You also seem to think that, to be a good Catholic, you have to believe in small govt. let me remind you that the Catholic vote in this country was profoundly democrat until the mid 60's, and those were the pre-Vatican 2, cassock wearing good ol' days that you are so nostalgic about.
ReplyDeleteWith an inuslt? Democrats being for bigger government is an insult?
DeleteIf Democrats aren't for bigger government then tell me that.
As to the 1960's, I'm aware that the Catholic Vote used to be mostly democrat. Help me understand why then. If the Church says we are to have as small a government as necessary, how did the cassock wearers justify their vote?
Who said I was nostalgic for the 1960's by the way? I'm nostalgic for orthodoxy, not for a time period in Americana
^^Exactly. It's the snarky attitude that is offensive. If your thoughts were presented with love and mercy it would at least not be quite as offensive. I sure don't feel welcome at your parish due to your blog and will be attending elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteI doubt you are actually a member of my parish, but if you are, you should probably grow some thicker skin if something that I post on my own blog has you twisted in a knot. Especially something like this.
DeleteIf this is the blog post that pushed you over the edge, you haven't been reading very long, because this one was nothing. It was posing a question and seeing what insights people had to counter it.
As for leaving the parish because of me, I didn't think the parish nor the Mass were about the priest, but maybe Vatican II was wrong? My family endured a pastor we didn't like for about 12 years, but maybe for you the parish and the Mass ARE a cult of personality?
Both the characterization of the Catholic Republican and the Catholic Democrat seem like caricatures applied over-broadly rather than accurate descriptors. There are lots of Republicans who vote for expanding government in regulatory power and in spending on public programs, Catholic not being an exception to this. Newt Gingrich comes to mind. There are lots of Democrats who want to shrink the government in the area of military might and our massive intelligence apparatus. The movement to get rid of Guantanamo Bay, reduce our military spending on lots of big weapons, and reveal the CIA practices regarding torture comes to mind.
ReplyDeleteThat said, there are certainly people who hold those views within each of the big-tent parties. And I think we can legitimately have concerns about the coherence of both positions from a Catholic perspective.
The Catholic person who is fully committed to using government to ameliorate poverty and provide for public material good via regulation and public programs while insisting at the same time that it should not prohibit abortion certainly has some explaining to do on the subject of why the proper role of government is to redistribute wealth and prohibit large corporations from harming vulnerable individuals and NOT to to prohibit parents from harming their children.
Also, The Catholic person who is fully committed to NOT using government to ameliorate poverty and provide for public material good via regulation and public programs while insisting at the same time that it SHOULD prohibit abortion certainly has some explaining to do on the subject of why the proper role of government is to prohibit parents from harming their children and NOT to redistribute wealth and prohibit large corporations from harming vulnerable individuals.
Folks who hold both of those positions could have a principled means of arriving at their beliefs on the proper scope of government. Many of them will probably not have arrived at those beliefs by principled means, but that has little to with their political party and a great deal to do with being a normal human person who is too busy to engage in systematic political philosophy and checking it for coherence with their religious beliefs.
well said. Thanks!
DeleteI'm glad you enjoyed it in spite of my typos, Father Hollowell. :-)
DeleteThe relationship between religion and politics is something I've written about a fair bit, so thanks for letting me have an opportunity to add my two cents on the topic.
Great plug for the GOP, Father. Glad we can count on your support.
ReplyDelete