I've been fielding a lot of questions on the proposed marriage amendment in Indiana that would essentially define marriage as being between a man and a woman.
Some ask: "there are other laws that allow violations of Church teaching, and yet the Church doesn't fight those; why should we fight against homosexual marriage?"
The answer here is real simple - the Church says there are certain things that governments can decide for themselves, but there are other issues that, if the government of a society gets them wrong (goes against the Church and Christ), then the society will fall.
So...a Catholic is COMMANDED to fight against certain violations of Church law - and the redefinition of marriage is one of those issues.
So it isn't a state law, as far as I'm aware, that cheating on spelling tests is illegal. The Church doesn't COMMAND Catholics to fight for laws that punish spelling test cheaters, even though cheating on a spelling test is morally wrong.
However, homosexual marriage IS something we are commanded, by the Church, to fight against in the civil realm.
You might not like to hear it spelled out this way...but a Catholic doesn't have the option as to whether or not they are going to care about legislation concerning the redefinition of marriage.
People looking for where, exactly, I'm getting this teaching will want to turn to paragraph 229 of the Compendium of Catholic Social Teaching, where we read:
"Although legislation may sometimes tolerate morally unacceptable behavior, it must never weaken the recognition of indissoluble monogamous marriage as the only authentic form of the family"
The first part of this teaching is derived from John Paul II's encyclical Evangelium Vitae, 71.
In that letter, Pope JP II was using St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa I-II q. 96 a. 2, which answers the question "whether it belongs to human law to repress all vices" - the answer being "no"
That's right, Father. And the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has spoken of our obligation to oppose such legislation:
ReplyDelete"In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty."
CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS (2003):
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
So you therefore support legislation that weakens indissoluble monogamous marriage? The logical fallacy of your argument is glaring, Fr. Hollowell.
ReplyDeleteThe logical fallacy of your argument in thinking that the Church references homosexual "marriage" when it says "indissoluble monogamous marriage" is glaring
DeleteExactly. With legalized falsehoods there is nothing real there to dissolve in the first place.
DeleteI think all your blogs about gay people/gay marriage/whatever else with gay people is glaring.
DeleteI think it is glaring that you think it is glaring that a priest would comment about what the Church teaches
DeleteI think it's glaring what the church teaches about gays....and how they should live their lives. Essentially they are condemned to a life of loneliness. Can't have a significant other so essentially the Catholic Church is telling these people they need to be alone, live alone, die alone....in the meantime, gay people watch their heterosexual counterparts get to date, enjoy each others company, live together, get married together, have kids together, die together. That to me is glaring.
Deleteso you have to be having sex to not be lonely?
DeleteWhere did I say anything about having sex? I have no clue where you got that idea and frankly, I think it's repulsive that you even said that. What's glaring is the fact that the church wants gay people to live a lonely life. They aren't to date, they aren't to cuddle on the couch to watch a movie, they aren't to hold hands, they aren't to share a kiss, they aren't allowed to marry....the list can go on and on. So what does that leave them with? Nothing pure and simple. Do you realize what kind of affect this can have on gay people who are lonely and want that special person in their lives? Do you realize it can cause psychological problems and other problems? Do you realize that some of them commit suicide because a lot of straight people like to look down their long goody-two shoes noses at them? I Guarantee you that most straight people who see two guys or girls holding hands in a public place think they're also having SEX!!! Which is exactly what your mindset is. I say you should get that outta the gutter. Cause not every gay couple has sex. And, if they do by any chance, isn't that what your confessional box is for?
Deleteso in order to not be lonely, you have to be able to hold hands with someone, or date someone, or cuddle, or kiss or marry?
DeleteLet me ask you this Fr. Hollowell; are gays allowed to be in a relationship? And for reasons that have been discussed, let's take out the sex part. So you have two gay guys dating but they refrain from having sex, but they do everything that a heterosexual couple does whose dating. Does your church allow such practices by gays? If not, why?
DeleteIt is a good question. I would say that most priests get the same question from heterosexual teenagers - "what is the most I can get away with?" But I think we all know where the line falls roughly - for two heterosexual people, what actions would cause the other to say "oh, this action that just happened fundamentally changed our relationship - we were just friends, but now we're on a different path" The Church doesn't have a published list of "how far is too far" because the Church knows that we know these things ourselves.
DeleteDating and courtship are for exploring the possibility of marriage with a person, so if a person who experiences attraction to the same sex and is also a faithful Catholic, that person wouldn't be "dating" another person of the same sex - but does that mean you aren't friends? Does that mean you can't love that person? Does that mean that intimacy is no longer possible? Of course not. Intimacy is expressed and shared in so many ways beyond the physical realm. In fact, it is the non-physical forms of intimacy that are both more difficult to express but more rewarding in the long run to share.
Pope Francis said the Church must shake off an "obsession" with teachings on several controversial issues such as homosexuality. He has called for people to show mercy rather than condemnation. Pope Francis said "Who am I to judge a gay person of goodwill who seeks the Lord?" I don't see you posting ANYTHING about these comments by the pope. Nor do I see you posting any of your own remarks in line and echoing Pope Francis' direction and sentiments. Yet, you continually post dangerous instruction to your followers that they are "commanded to fight". Fight with what? Where is your love and compassion, Father? I have yet to see that from your words here.
ReplyDeleteFrom a December 31st CNS story - Pope Francis is “shocked” about legislation in Malta that would allow homosexual couples to adopt children and encouraged the auxiliary bishop of that island nation, Charles J. Scicluna, to “speak out” against the proposal"
DeleteI don't judge people, Jesus said don't judge people, Pope Francis said don't judge people - but we sure as heck judge actions and we sure as heck fight for laws, and by fight you know exactly what I mean, so calm yourself down
You know, all of this can be solved and solved rather quickly, provided you believe that the Bible is 100% true. In FOUR places in the Gospels, Jesus PROMISED to give people ANYTHING they asked for in prayer. The only condition was that they have faith. In Mt. 21, Mt. 18, Jn. 14, Mk 11, these passages, Jesus makes it crystal clear that you will be granted what you pray for. So.....what you need to do is this: Pray to God asking Him to cure every single homosexual on this earth and make them heterosexual immediately. Then ask God to make sure that nobody else will ever be homosexual ever ever ever again. Remember, Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life and also perfect. So I would kindly ask that you do this for all homosexuals, that way there are A) no more bullying of them, B) No more gay people committing suicide C) No more gay "marriages" D) Many more happy families on this earth E) The END of the National Organization for Marriage(hallelujah on that one!!). Read those gospel passages over if you have to, let it sink in, and start praying!
DeleteThose Gospel passages, as they have consistently been interpreted by the Church through the centuries, have not been understood to be saying God = a genie
DeleteSo Jesus lied then? That's what you are essentially saying. And, if you say no, that's not correct, then please tell me why it is that those 4 Gospel passages are NOT lies. Why would Jesus even make such extravagant promises to begin with? As the third person of the trinity-- God the Father, God the SON and God the Holy Spirit, Jesus surely would have known that what he had said wasn't exactly true. And what isn't exactly true = a lie. I anxiously await your answer Fr. Hollowell.
DeleteJesus said call no man father - didn't mean it literally
DeleteJesus said you have to hate your father and mother before coming to him - he didn't mean it literally
He said the Son of Man has no place to lay his head - he didn't mean it literally
I could go on...
You are the same person, and you come on here every few months - you need to get over the fact that not everything in the Bible is to be read literally. If you don't get over that, you'll never know God as He really is
I'll make one point before I leave this blog; Jesus being the 3rd person in the trinity, he surely would have known that there are some things you can't take what he says literally and should have clarified it better so that everybody has an understanding. However, he did none of that. The Bible = confusion and that means God = confusion. Personally, I'm starting to see the light here and the reality is, God probably doesn't exist to begin with. God can not be a cause of confusion(should there even be one).
DeleteThe above is apparently a different Scott W. than me. I'll try to post this under my WordPress blog (I think I stopped because this blog didn't like WP), but Fr. Hollowell, if can manage it, perhaps you could do a IP check to make sure someone isn't pulling our legs.
DeleteScott W.
romishgraffiti.wordpress.com
The above is apparently a different Scott W. than me. I usually try to comment under my blog ID, romishgraffiti.wordpress.com, but for whatever reason, this blog doesn't like WP i.d.'s. Fr. Hollowell, perhaps you could check IP addresses to make sure someone isn't pulling our legs.
DeleteNo, I don't really know what you mean. You consistently post opinions in a strongly worded manner, seemingly intended to spark reaction. I don't ever see you post anything asking for people to show mercy and compassion to those you "command" us to "fight". I'm asking you to think about your words and the harm that they may cause. The Church loses more and more members every year, and it is no surprise, that it's due to attitudes like yours. I see you show NO compassion and mercy to those who may be seeking it. You should be ashamed to call yourself a follower of Christ. Christ would open his arms, not fold them and look down on people like you do. And before it's brought up, I remain anonymous out of respect for my family, so they do not experience retaliation and verbal attacks...which easily could be the actions that your blog followers believe you're asking for in your "commandment to fight".
ReplyDeleteI feel so judged right now! You are taking something I spend 15 minutes a week writing on (this blog) and you judge me as a person? So even though Jesus said don't judge, you are going to judge me...wow. Well, I'll cry myself to sleep tonight thinking of how you have judged me!
DeleteWell, here you say that Jesus said "don't Judge". That was in one of the Gospels. The other FOUR places Jesus PROMISED to answer prayers. You take Jesus at his word with his saying "don't judge".....but in the other FOUR places you don't.??? What's the point of believing in the Bible if you can't believe some things that Jesus says but believe other things he says???
DeleteI trust the Church and my conscience to help guide me through understanding what Jesus meant literally and what he didn't mean literally. It really is quite easy.
DeleteEasy? So what's the criteria for deciding what you can take literally and what you can take figuratively? If it's too good to be true then it's figuratively? Or of it's too awful to be true it's figuratively? Or if it's in between you can take it literally? Why can't we take Jesus at his word? Jesus is(supposedly) the way, the TRUTH and the life!
DeleteYes, easy. If I agree with it = literally. If I don't agree with it = figuratlvly.
DeleteWelcome to the Republican Catholic Church of America™.
~iv
Before becoming pope, a bill for same-sex marriage was proposed in his country. Here's what he said:
ReplyDelete"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts. Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."
And before someone squawks that this was before he became pope, consider that while he was pope, Greg Reynolds, dissident priest and supporter of gay marriage, was both defrocked and excommunicated. Granted, he was already in hot water prior to Pope Francis taking the chair, but if the Holy Father really wanted to signal a radical change, he would have put the brakes on this high-profile excommunication.
Ya know, it's kinda funny those of us trying to uphold orthodox Catholicism are often accused of ultramontanism, but if taking one out-of-context comment from one off-the-cuff interview of the Pope and treating it like an infallible directive isn't ultramontanism, I don't know what is.
It is simply disrespectful to compare same sex marriage to cheating on a spelling test. Try discussing why the Church doesn't pursue the illegality of pornography instead. I think it'd be difficult to convince very many people that same sex marriage harms society anywhere nearly as much as pornography.
ReplyDelete