tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post8975678918338519901..comments2024-03-17T22:14:39.612-04:00Comments on On This Rock: UPDATED: Statistics Concerning Male Altar ServersFather John Hollowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12850864104003705536noreply@blogger.comBlogger154125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-84940296902713228402014-04-19T04:17:21.565-04:002014-04-19T04:17:21.565-04:00Wow! This was way over discussed as to why boys w...Wow! This was way over discussed as to why boys will not serve with girls and whether girls' hurt feelings will turn them away from the Church forever. <br />These kids are preteens or young teens. Boys are shy around girls at that age and girls can be bossy if no one takes the lead during mass prep. Do boys want to serve knowing they may be matched up with a girl they don't know?? Heck, no!! They would rather have a poke in the eye before going back into a small sacristy to face a girl who may boss them around, or worse yet, they may have to say something to her!! <br />I've noticed servers work better together when it is 2 boys or 2 girls or siblings. <br />As far as girls' feelings getting hurt, rather than an abrupt change, a phase out with a known end time should suffice for parents to explain the reason and purpose for a switch to all male servers. <br />There is no reason to have embittered feelings from the girls if the parents do not carry any. Girls' feelings are hurt many times during these years, but it is up to the parents to help them through it....whether it will be a lasting pain or a growing pain. <br />Girls can offer service to the mass by eventually becoming lectors...but I may be opening another can of worms with that comment. <br />My son was a server for many years. He enjoyed it. He had and has no interest in becoming a priest. Which was a little disappointment for me but I got over it. After a few years he is beginning to attend mass once again on his own. Yay. <br />My twin daughters are servers now. They enjoy it. They would be very upset if asked to stop serving. They are considered among the best servers in our parish. (Not my words but Father's). Yet if Father were to say "all male servers", I would discuss his reasoning, do my best to understand it, and then work with my daughters to help them cope/accept the change to the best of their ability. <br />It makes sense that more boys would want to serve without girls in the ranks. At that age, they are more comfortable working with other boys than with girls. Ask any boy that age...would he sign up to work with a girl or a boy?? It has nothing to do with the priesthood, but everything to do with fraternal comfort. No statistics needed, just good old common sense. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-59130194750090056902013-10-25T17:52:13.286-04:002013-10-25T17:52:13.286-04:00That's great. If they want to send me their p...That's great. If they want to send me their parish name, location, and the priest's name and number for me to confirm the numbers with, I will definitely include it. <br /><br />Your rage towards the numbers is not explained, however. You are mad that I am saying correlation implies causality, which I have never said. I have said that for me this study is very telling, but I have never said that a correlation implies causality. I was the math student of the year my junior and senior year of college, and as I've noted, I understand the concept quite well. What isn't explained is your being so upset with me reporting the numbers.Father John Hollowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12850864104003705536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-26326933704297925182013-10-25T10:43:59.721-04:002013-10-25T10:43:59.721-04:00Fr. John, will you report the research of Anonymou...Fr. John, will you report the research of Anonymous from September 18 at 12:32 PM (see post 3 above yours)? I suspect you will not, even though they are just as valid as your own.<br /><br />Your numbers show correlation. Similarly, there is also a correlation between ice cream cone sales and homicides in our country. Does that mean that ice cream cones sales are in any way related to homicides? No. There is another variable that impacts both - the weather (both ice cream sales and homicides increase in warmer weather). Failing to examine or even consider other possible variables in your study greatly weakens your argument. <br /><br />It is easy to show some numbers and then say "numbers don't lie." Except that, in some cases, numbers can be very deceiving when not taken for what they are.<br /><br />"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark TwainAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-17228951081651638052013-10-24T07:27:45.080-04:002013-10-24T07:27:45.080-04:00Actually, I can only count 4 servers before the tr...Actually, I can only count 4 servers before the transition, so I don't remember who the fifth was, so if the numbers were off, it would be on the number before the transition having been reported as too high. <br /><br />In the numbers before, I'm not counting adults who served. They were only serving because there were no young people. To a person, they were thrilled to not have to serve anymore, unless they were lying to me. Father John Hollowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12850864104003705536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-64806403885320507052013-10-24T07:03:10.764-04:002013-10-24T07:03:10.764-04:00I just rechecked. The numbers are accurateI just rechecked. The numbers are accurateFather John Hollowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12850864104003705536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-10115254912314787352013-10-23T20:45:25.912-04:002013-10-23T20:45:25.912-04:00Father, I hate to dispute you, but unfortunately, ...Father, I hate to dispute you, but unfortunately, your numbers for Annunciation parish servers are wrong. Our parish had a lot more than five servers before the switch. According to my numbers, the parish had around fifteen servers before the switch. Also, at least two of the new servers appeared simply because they finally became qualified at the same time as the change. While I greatly agree with only male servers, I have to disagree with your logic on this certain issue. I appreciate all you have done for the serving program at Annunciation, but I would like to ask for your recalculation of our parish's numbers.<br /><br /><br />Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-43452286482039593722013-10-19T11:47:11.264-04:002013-10-19T11:47:11.264-04:00Thank you, Father.
Let us continue to pray and off...Thank you, Father.<br />Let us continue to pray and offer sacrifices/fasts for all priests and for many holy vocations to the priesthood and religious life, and for holy marriages and families.<br /><br />Our local parish priest recently came under fire from upset parishioners when he announced in the bulletin that the boy altar servers would be allowed to wear cassocks. (Many boys had been asking Father to allow them to wear cassocks rather than the all white albs which are gender neutral liturgical garments.) <br /><br />Due to the negative responses of some, Father announced at all the Sunday Masses last week that his cassock decision was changed to 'pending further consideration.' <br /><br />Your prayers appreciated. May God's will be done.<br />Bridgethttp://glimpseofpeace.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-73493105133770336632013-10-18T15:32:39.757-04:002013-10-18T15:32:39.757-04:00I am actually in favor of boy altar servers over g...I am actually in favor of boy altar servers over girl altar servers. We attended a military parish of 400 people and there were 16 girl altar servers and 2 boy altar servers. This was definitely driven by the altar server coordinator at that time who had three daughters. We moved to a smaller military parish of about 100 people and my 15 year old daughter was asked to altar serve. In this community, it seems that every family that has qualified kids (meaning they have received First Communion) are serving in some way. <br />As in all ministries, including EMHC and Lectors and other areas of that need volunteers, when you stand up during announcements or put a plea in the bulletin for more altar servers, lectors, choir members, EMHC's, etc, you don't get much response. And that seems to be the modus operandi of pretty much every parish we've been involved in. My curiosity about this sudden boom in altar servers is that I think these parishes saw that their current recruitment strategy wasn't working and so they made a physical effort to recruit boy altar servers. <br />My daughter would never have volunteered to be an altar server. But, the coordinator asked her in person and she said yes. And there does seem to be an equal mix of boys of girls. Because my daughter is an altar server now at the age of 15 does that mean that she thinks she's going to be a priest some day? Nope. But she has been discerning a vocation to the religious life since she was 8. Mary Fitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17722545079820568485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-75849944560998191372013-10-18T08:43:08.794-04:002013-10-18T08:43:08.794-04:00This comment box is riddled with people theorizing...This comment box is riddled with people theorizing as to why the numbers are what they are. People who are upset with what the numbers show are free to go in to these parishes and conduct scientific research to explore these theories. For me, the numbers confirm exactly what the Church has always said, so I don't feel the need to go and dig deeper, but I'd be thrilled to report on any research that anyone conducts at these parishes. Father John Hollowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12850864104003705536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-52223030280475437832013-10-17T22:34:02.307-04:002013-10-17T22:34:02.307-04:00could it be that a conscious and deliberate recrui...could it be that a conscious and deliberate recruitment for male altar servers was the reason for the increase? Could it be that these parishes weren't actively recruiting before they changed to boys only? Could it be that someone stood up during announcements and said "we need altar servers" but didn't do anything beyond making an announcements? Could it be because these parishes saw a decrease in altar servers and then made an effort to start actively pursuing boys only? Could it be that the majority of parents just aren't requiring their kids to serve the church any more? I don't know what the answer is. I just don't think this particular poll addresses why the sudden increase in boy altar servers at these particular parishes.Mary Fitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17722545079820568485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-8836290682706102932013-10-14T15:03:11.928-04:002013-10-14T15:03:11.928-04:00Our priest is 50, and only been a priest for less ...Our priest is 50, and only been a priest for less than five years. He didn't serve on the altar, until he was in the seminary. He loves being a priest and it shows in his homilies and the way he ministers to the parish. So it would really be a great study for someone to do, about how serving at the altar has kept someone in the faith.Christinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-83821048748247627612013-09-29T02:43:34.584-04:002013-09-29T02:43:34.584-04:00I think you meant "allowed by INDULT," n...I think you meant "allowed by INDULT," not "insult." :-) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-31375354731330053332013-09-18T12:32:18.313-04:002013-09-18T12:32:18.313-04:00A friend pointed me to this blog and I've been...A friend pointed me to this blog and I've been reading with interest. Our parish (midwest, about 600 families) was experiencing a dire shortage of altar servers and frequently had older men serving at the altar. However, about 5 years ago, serving at the altar was opened up to girls and now we have plenty of girls AND boys serving, enough for 4 at all of the Saturday and Sunday Masses. My casual count is that we have about 60% boys and 40% girls. I know they have to be entering middle school to take the class and most quit after high school. At the same time, our parish instituted a Master of Ceremonies for the Mass, which is a senior, male altar server who might be interested in a priestly vocation. This server makes sure that all the others have everything correct and generally supervises and solves any little problem that comes up. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-22265683566429317732013-09-17T13:45:54.719-04:002013-09-17T13:45:54.719-04:00Thank your Father Hollowell for opening up this di...Thank your Father Hollowell for opening up this discussion. I have enjoyed the comments..well, some of them!<br />I must say that I like to see male servers. At Mass a few weeks ago I asked four males from our youth group to present the gifts. As they walked up to the altar I realize how much the Holy Catholic Church needs these young men to hear his call to the priesthood, or fatherhood. We need God-fearing, obedient men and women. <br />I think the problem is we have blurred the gender roles. Men want to be women, women want to be men....God gave us our roles and instead of embracing them we fight against it. <br />Motherhood, Fatherhood, Vocations are not respected or valued. May we all desire to live the vocation that God has called us to, and that calling will be in line with the teaching of the Church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-72707989425369291842013-09-16T12:49:48.225-04:002013-09-16T12:49:48.225-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Strawberry Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13254926411091496661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-27054623902707864882013-09-16T09:40:28.532-04:002013-09-16T09:40:28.532-04:00Thank you, Padre for the clarification that it is ...Thank you, Padre for the clarification that it is up to the individual pastor. I am always grateful for your information.Strawberry Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13254926411091496661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-63124211890060632072013-09-14T21:43:30.383-04:002013-09-14T21:43:30.383-04:00Father, God bless you in the uphill battle you eng...Father, God bless you in the uphill battle you engage in on this forum.<br /><br />I pray for an increase in vocations as well. We need good and faithful priests. Your noting the purposeful boundary pushing of liberal factions (priests and faithful) is much needed. It reminds me of willful teens in the first flush of liberty deciding that - YES - they will be the bold ones to release the genie from the bottle. <br /><br />What fun! What innovation! It's about time too! Everyone can be a Chief and damn the Indians! Don't need 'em.<br /><br />The value of the humble and hidden life of sacrifice - that which is done in secret that no one but God can see - seems nearly forgotten. Sad too as contemplative prayer at Mass - that is ACTIVE participation - is spiritually very fruitful and satisfying!!! <br /><br />Pattyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08235729013713862652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-31530402416545581962013-09-14T21:35:39.638-04:002013-09-14T21:35:39.638-04:00Having some statistics is different than not refer...Having some statistics is different than not referencing anyFather John Hollowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12850864104003705536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-88383054828748815012013-09-14T20:57:33.102-04:002013-09-14T20:57:33.102-04:00Andy: I'm 49 years old and am in the midst of...Andy: I'm 49 years old and am in the midst of - no kidding - my 26th move in just as many years of marriage. Mix of military and high tech job moves. I'm beat at present and wish, as you put it, I could put on the rosy colored glasses of tradition and/or go back to any number of eras, states, old houses. <br /><br />I've moved back to some states/towns before only to learn first hand that there is no going back.<br /><br />It is critical however to not look back and only see what some interpret as medieval constraint. Times change but people don't. So thinking that women are somehow different now in wanting to have leadership roles just isn't the case. And disciplines in the Church - much like celibacy for priests - were established for good reason. <br /><br />Traditional motherhood requires nothing but leadership. The idea is to properly form and rear the children one has in marriage, not just breed like a biological machine and dress like a frump. The religious life is also available to women. And it is quite challenging. I've known quite a few Mother Prioresses - cloistered, semi-cloistered, and active. Very demanding and necessary to grow the vibrant Church of which you speak. Sacrifice and prayer call down God's blessings. Not just activity that makes a body 'feel' more useful. And the priests rely on these good women - they'd be LOST without them even though technically they don't hold a higher position.<br /><br />And you are SO right in not forgetting the importance of LOVE. But what is love? Sacrifice. Not putting oneself forward to compete in those roles to which the Church does not call you and/or causing division and agitation on the premise of 'maybe' or 'what if'. That is the maybe there was/is sexism. What if we switch up those things mentioned in the Bible because we want to be loving. That's not really love.<br /><br />Not when stats are showing that vocations - which we all need - rise when boys are called to job shadow priests. Not when the supposed 'could be' contradicts the Apostles or the early Church Fathers that actually KNEW and WALKED with Our Lord. <br /><br />So with respect, my penchant for tradition isn't based on feeling and or mere likening (it's often very exacting). It's based on logic and a LOVE for Holy Mother Church who has suffered nothing but decline since all the influx of vibrant novelty.<br /><br />I've got to eat something now or I'm gonna drop.<br /><br /><br /><br />Pattyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08235729013713862652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-2080837751475685782013-09-14T08:26:57.110-04:002013-09-14T08:26:57.110-04:00And you, in other comments, agree that your survey...And you, in other comments, agree that your survey is also not "research".~IVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-49443413167461472582013-09-14T07:51:30.074-04:002013-09-14T07:51:30.074-04:00In giving permission to allow female altar servers...In giving permission to allow female altar servers (instead of sanctioning liberal priests who had already been allowing it for 10-20 years in the U.S.) JP II noted that the decision is up to...wait for it...EACH INDIVIDUAL PASTOR. I am an individual pastor. The decision is mine.<br /><br />As to your other point, I wouldn't try to eliminate female EMHC's, I would hope we can get to the point where all EMHC's are unnecessary because of an explosion in vocations and a return to a reading of the document that actually dictates when the Precious Blood is supposed to be distributed. It is NOT supposed to be distributed every Sunday, let alone at weekday Masses. But we all have to have a role to play at Mass or it just isn't as fun.Father John Hollowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12850864104003705536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-59653269868094000092013-09-13T12:16:47.558-04:002013-09-13T12:16:47.558-04:00Padre,
I see someone has already cited Bishop Coy...Padre,<br /><br />I see someone has already cited Bishop Coyne's video. Before I read your response, my concern was, as lay people, we are asked to follow the decisions made by our bishops. Where does that leave you? That's where I have trouble wrapping my mind around the promotion of boys only. The bishop says it's ok to have girls. I find it troubling when pastors do not follow what the bishop says, not just on this matter, but any matter.<br />I find your response to the video even more troubling. Now we are to look for research when drawing conclusions about our faith? Listening to our bishop is not good enough?<br />And finally, where's the campaign to eliminate female extraordinary Eucharistic ministers? Surely there is similar logic and stats for this as well?Strawberry Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13254926411091496661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-54640851028131570972013-09-13T11:15:08.675-04:002013-09-13T11:15:08.675-04:00Patty, I know some people who want to have a compl...Patty, I know some people who want to have a complete makeover of the church, but I don't think most people want that. At the same time there are more than 2 choices here. It's not just tradition or change. I'll take both. The Church does have a rich tradition to draw from, but our Church's history also shows us many mistakes as well which were changed sometimes painstakingly. Our Church's history and tradition is a great means to inform what the Church becomes in the future, but we should not try to recreate a rose-colored view of the past or tradition. <br /><br />Our Church is a living, vibrant, and diverse community of believers, and we should embrace that. On the issue of altar servers (small-scale) and leadership in the Church (large scale), I believe that some women thrive with those responsibilities. Women can be leaders of our Church in more than one way. Traditional motherhood is a great vocation for many women and provides a great value to the Church, but not all women have that calling. Many women have great leadership skills that should be more embraced by our Church.<br /><br />Maybe my most salient point is that Christ did not teach traditional values, but rather shed light onto the many pitfalls that a heavy focus on tradition (within the Jewish faith at the time) could lead to. If we lose our focus on love, nothing else matters. And I believe that the Church is currently suppressing the gifts of many of its women, not in love but in a clinging to tradition.Andynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-62826089612099651442013-09-13T08:57:35.690-04:002013-09-13T08:57:35.690-04:00I'm not sure, after reading the comments, if y...I'm not sure, after reading the comments, if your point was about female altar servers making boys uncomfortable or about parishes having only male alter servers producing more seminarians... but my parish serves as anecdotal evidence contrary to your hypothesis. Our parish in NW Ohio had about 50 altar servers in the mid to late 90s, both girls and boys. We got a new pastor, who decided to switch back to all boys and make a lot of other liturgical changes (more traditional music, chanting, asked us to stop holding hands during the Lord's Prayer, to name a few) and generally moved the parish in a more "traditional" manner (can't think of a better word). After 12 years with this pastor, not only did we only have about a dozen altar servers, our parish membership had dropped by a third or more. In the mid-2000s, our parish was officially merged with another parish and the dioscese is now looking to sell our parish's buildings. Our merged parish has both male and female altar servers and the numbers seem pretty equal. So who knows why these changes happened to our once small, but active, parish? But I can't help but think that one of the reasons was that girls weren't allowed to serve anymore. Just my personal experience. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8560483615460834385.post-5623540822886635332013-09-12T19:55:49.179-04:002013-09-12T19:55:49.179-04:00Andy, thank you for your comment. Your views are ...Andy, thank you for your comment. Your views are appreciated. That said, cleaving to tradition is something that comes highly recommended in times of crisis. <br /><br />With people leaving the Church - or rather leaving off the Faith - I too am concerned. That said, the only thing that drew me back to Mother Church after a 27 year absence was tradition. Not because I believed I was too holy and/or put off spiritually by the new movements, but precisely because I saw no meat in what the modern church had to offer. No consistency. No logic. It's very maybe and ifs turned me off.<br /><br />It is not only a cleaving to tradition by way of blind faith, but by near starvation that led me to appreciate traditional ways and all that they do offer. Yes, the times are changing. But it's the very unchangeable bulwark of the Catholic Church that shows her beauty. Beauty in constancy and faithfulness.<br /><br />No, altar servers is not a dogmatic teaching, but there are understandable implications that accompany such a role. That said, what I'd like to see for our girls is a renewal of the beauty and intimate union with Christ that is brought about by Traditional motherhood and those service roles that go unseen. Remember, God sees and rewards that which is done in private as well. <br /><br />The Church has too rich a heritage to toss it all in the air in the hopes that the puzzle pieces will fall into a new and intriguing pattern to draw faithful. Pattyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08235729013713862652noreply@blogger.com